Oral evidence: Academy Accounts and Performance, HC 1597

Oral evidence, 19 November 2018.

Witnesses

Angela Barry, David Boyle and John Wentworth.

Meg Hillier

Welcome to the Public Accounts Committee on Monday 19 November 2018. We have been looking at issues around academies and academy funding and management for some time, and this is the first of three panels we have on this issue. We are talking today to some of the academy trusts that have had difficulties. On Wednesday, we will be challenging the Department about that, and later this afternoon we have got a number of parents and governors from some of the affected academies, to hear from the frontline what life has been like for them. First, I want to introduce this afternoon’s panel. From my left to right, we have John Wentworth, who is a consultant at the Durand Education Trust. That is not the same as the Durand Academy Trust, is it, Mr Wentworth? The Durand Academy Trust no longer exists. Is that right?

John Wentworth

It does, Chair, but as an empty trust.

Chair

The Durand Education Trust owns the land and assets that remain from that body, but not the schools directly.

John Wentworth

Yes.

Chair

Angela Barry is the interim chief executive officer at Bright Tribe Trust. You have been there since September, Ms Barry. Is that right?

Angela Barry

Yes.

Chair

I understand you are also the chief executive officer of some other trusts. Is that right? Can you tell us what other roles you have from the Department?

Angela Barry

I became a trustee of Bright Tribe in July, when I was invited by the DFE to become a trustee. Over the summer, to add capacity, I became interim executive support, and by September I was interim CEO. I was the interim CEO of Schools Company Trust when it got into difficulty. That trust is now an empty MAT. The schools have all been rebrokered, and I am simply staying on there while it is an empty MAT with a skeletal board to provide accounting officer duties.

Chair

What about the ALAT trust?

Angela Barry

The Adventure Learning Academies Trust is another trust that was aligned to Bright Tribe. At one point, they sought to amalgamate the two trusts, but both trusts decided they did not want to be amalgamated, so they are separate. They used to share governance, but they now have separate governance, although they still share me as interim CEO, and they share an interim COO.

Chair

You are an interim CEO of three organisations at the moment. That is quite a lot of work. How do you manage your time and oversight of those three trusts?

Angela Barry

The role in the Schools Company Trust is a light-touch role, in that I report to the skeletal board and provide accounting officer duties to ensure that, as the trust is wound up, the correct reporting procedures are in place. There are no children or provisions to oversee, so that is a caretaking position. The interim CEO position of Bright Tribe and ALAT is different because that is a live trust with children still in it. I cover that one as I would do a substantive role. My interim COO and I visit the schools—my interim COO visits some, and I visit others.

Chair

Are you paid separately for each of those three positions?

Angela Barry

I am paid as the interim CEO of Bright Tribe and ALAT—that is one salary. The other salary is a nominal payment only for days worked. At the moment, I am doing most of the work for Schools Company Trust pro bono, because it is literally half an hour here, half an hour there and perhaps a phone call. I would only charge for a quarter day, a half day or a full day. For this month, because the schools were brokered as of 31 October, so far I have done one day in total.

Chair

What is your day rate for this work for the Department for Education?

Angela Barry

My day rate is £800 plus expenses—that is my travel.

Chair

And that is paid for by the trusts that you work for.

Angela Barry

Yes. I am not a consultant; I am on the payroll. I need to be on the payroll to be the accounting officer.

Chair

You talk about a day rate, but you say are on the payroll; are you on the payroll at your day rate rather than at the rate that would be paid normally to a CEO?

Angela Barry

Yes. That is the rate I am paid on a daily basis on the payroll.

Chair

Okay. Is that pensionable?

Angela Barry

No, that is non-pensionable. I am not in the teachers’ pension scheme for that.

Chair

Mr Boyle is the principal accounting officer from the Dunraven Academy, which has taken over the schools from the Durand Academy Trust. Have you taken over all the schools?

David Boyle

What was transferred to us was just the primary. The secondary provision was closed.

Chair

The Van Gogh Primary School.

David Boyle

Yes.

Chair

Interesting title. Why did you choose it?

David Boyle

The site on Hackford Road is opposite the house that Van Gogh lived in for a year when he was in Brixton. The road adjacent to the school is Van Gogh Walk, which is looked after by the local community, which grows sunflowers there.

Chair

There you go—interesting, but perhaps not so relevant to the direct questions today. Thank you very much for coming. We want to ask you some questions as those involved in multi-academy trusts, which we have been pursuing with interest for some time. Before we go any further, Ms Barry, what stage is Bright Tribe at in handing over the academies that you are responsible for? There has been a delay in handing over Whitehaven, for sure. Can you go through the academies and where they are in transferring over to any other trust?

Angela Barry

Haltwhistle Upper and Haltwhistle Lower went to WISE Academy Trust from 1 September. The next academy to transfer will be Whitehaven, which was due to transfer on 1 November but is now due to transfer on 1 December. Going to Oldham, Werneth Primary Academy Trust is due to transfer on 1 February to Pinnacle academy trust. Staying in the north, there are a couple of trusts conducting due diligence activities around sponsorship for Grindon Hall. To move to the eastern region, the Colchester Academy is due to transfer to the South Suffolk Learning Trust—we are looking for transfer on 1 March for the eastern academies. Cliff Lane Primary and the Castle Hill Infant and Junior Schools should transfer to ASSET Education. Alde Valley should be transferring to Waveney Valley trust—

Chair

When will those transfers happen?

Angela Barry

On 1 March. Then on 1 April the ALAT academies should be transferring to their respective trusts.

Chair

We know, too, that there has been a recent exit of senior management from Whitehaven Academy—on Friday we found out that the headteacher has left. Can you explain why that is?

Angela Barry

I don’t usually comment on individual cases, but the stakeholders in the local area—the parents, staff and other stakeholders—have been communicated with.

Chair

Okay. So was it an amicable parting of company?

Angela Barry

As I say, I don’t usually comment on individual cases, but I am quite happy to send you the letter, the communication, that went out—

Chair

We have seen that. Did both parties sign a confidentiality agreement about the departure?

Angela Barry

I don’t usually comment on individual cases.

Chair

We appreciate that an individual is involved, so I won’t pursue that further here, but I know the local MP has some concerns. I understand, though, and do not want to put the individual in a difficult position. May I turn to you now, Mr Wentworth? What was your role in the Durand Academy Trust? Do you have any ongoing role with it?

John Wentworth

Yes, I do. I had two spells at the Durand Academy Trust, one from ’14 to ’15, supporting the then leadership over a headship vacancy; and, most recently—

Chair

Did you fill the headship vacancy?

John Wentworth

No, I was there as a consultant.

Chair

Did you support them in recruiting?

John Wentworth

I was supporting a headteacher who left mid-year and then supporting the process of securing another, acting headteacher.

Chair

That was ’14 to ’15.

John Wentworth

That was ’14 to ’15.

Chair

Have you had any involvement since then?

John Wentworth

Yes. I was back again for the school year ’17-’18, upon the departure of the former headteacher, who had been acting as chair of governors, and the former acting executive head. They both departed the school on 31 August 2017, which left quite a gap in the leadership and management of that school, so the governing body asked me to come in to give support over that year.

Chair

What did that support entail? Did you act as head?

John Wentworth

No. There were two young acting co-headteachers with very little experience, so I was supporting those acting co-headteachers through their role. One had to be named as the accounting officer, so I was supporting him, and I was supporting the governing body, trying to find a way forward for the academy.

Chair

You had previously retired, with 20 years’ standing as a headteacher in south London—is that right?

John Wentworth

Twenty-four years.

Chair

Twenty-four years—I didn’t mean to cut off four years of your experience. When did you become involved with the Durand Education Trust? Remind us.

John Wentworth

In 2016.

Chair

So you were already helping it to divest itself of assets, is that right?

John Wentworth

The ownership of those assets is very unclear, Chair. There is an ongoing discussion with the ESFA, through both sets of lawyers, as to what happens with those assets. It is very unclear.

Chair

May we have a little more detail about that? It is unclear, but at the moment the assets are owned by the Durand Education Trust.

John Wentworth

The Durand Education Trust owns the remaining assets—everything that the school previously used has been transferred to Lambeth and the lease to the Dunraven Educational Trust.

Chair

Will you give us a bit more detail about why there is confusion about the ownership of the Durand Education Trust? Ultimately, it was taxpayers’ money that was invested in those properties.

John Wentworth

The Durand Education Trust maintains that it is the legitimate trustees of that land

Chair

To be clear, you maintain that the assets belong to the Durand Education Trust—

John Wentworth

That is its position, yes.

Chair

But that is your position too.

John Wentworth

Yes.

Chair

These are taxpayer-funded assets—what would the Durand Education Trust do with those buildings if it remains in control of them? To be clear about what is involved, that is the leisure centre and—

John Wentworth

That is the leisure centre and accommodation—two separate accommodation blocks.

Chair

Okay. What would the Durand Education Trust do? I understand that it was set up to support the Durand Academy, so now the Durand Academy doesn’t exist, what is the point of the trust’s existence and where would the assets—

John Wentworth

It has a wider educational remit, as well, Chair, to support education in Lambeth, so it would be to support the wider educational objectives of children in Lambeth and to support the children at the Van Gogh Primary School.

Gareth Snell

What other activities does the trust undertake to support education in Lambeth that would require a leisure centre and two empty accommodation blocks?

John Wentworth

None at the moment, because traditionally it has always supported children at the previous Durand Academy and at Durand Primary School, prior to that.

Chair

If you kept hold of that accommodation, is the plan that it would be available to teachers, for example, as key worker housing or something?

John Wentworth

No, not necessarily. It is let on a very short term. In fact, in terms of the lease that we have agreed with Lambeth, I do not think we would be able to do a longer-term let anyway. They do not want any security of tenure on those premises.

Chair

So the Durand Academy will be getting income from the property and from the leisure centre as well, presumably.

John Wentworth

The Education Trust is, yes.

Chair

Can you give us any information about the precise nature of the dispute about the ownership of the land? Is it because the trust is a charity that it thinks it owns it?

John Wentworth

All the land was transferred in, I believe, May 2010—maybe June or July 2010—to the Durand Education Trust. That was signed off by the then Secretary of State, so it was transferred at that stage. Whether or not the Durand Education Trust has the authority to transfer it to another trust, we are not clear. It would be subject to the Charity Commission.

Chair

I was going to say that it is not impossible for charities to transfer their assets—I have been a trustee; it is perfectly possible. Is it that the Durand trustees do not want that to happen, or are you waiting on the call from the Charity Commission?

John Wentworth

It is probably half and half.

Layla Moran

When the Secretary of State signed that agreement, it would have been for the use of educating children, so how are you, Mr Wentworth, planning to use the leisure centre and the accommodation to make sure that happens? Why do you not just give it back to the community?

John Wentworth

We are not sure that we have the authority to do that.

Layla Moran

Do you want to?

John Wentworth

Not particularly, no.

Layla Moran

Why not?

John Wentworth

Because we need to fulfil the wider objectives of the Durand Education Trust as a charity in its own right.

Layla Moran

Were those always the objectives, or were they changed once the trust lost the schools?

John Wentworth

No, they have largely remained the same. They are the education of children in Van Gogh Primary and the wider education of children—the wider educational benefits of children in Lambeth.

Chair

There is no reason why the trustees could not just choose to wind up the charity.

John Wentworth

They could.

Chair

But they are choosing not to do that.

John Wentworth

They are choosing not to at the moment, yes.

Layla Moran

Mr Boyle, what are your thoughts on that? Do you benefit from this outstanding facility?

David Boyle

We are grateful that the DET has agreed to allow the children in the school to use the MUGA—the multi-use games area—and the astroturf pitch that sit, in effect, slap in the middle of the school site, in between the school buildings and the leisure centre and accommodation. The DET—that gets confusing, because we are both DET. The Durand Education Trust has agreed that the children can have use of the MUGA between 8 o’clock and 6 o’clock during the week, and at weekends it reverts back to use by the DET.

Chair

Do you pay a fee for that?

David Boyle

No, they have agreed that we will have that. One of the key issues for everybody involved is that the focus of Durand for far too long was not on children or education, but on buildings, money and finance. One of the things we were keen to do, with Mr Wentworth’s support, ultimately, was to return the focus to children, so we are very glad to have use of the MUGA. When we were asked if we would become a sponsor for the school, one of the points of discussion was that the ESFA and the DfE would continue the conversation about other aspects of the land to a point of conclusion—whatever that conclusion is—because we did not want to get embroiled in that ongoing situation. Our feeling was that an awful lot of time, energy and public money had already been spent on following that through.

Layla Moran

Do you use that space all the time, so it is full between 8 o’clock and 6 o’clock? Is it being used to its full capacity the whole time?

David Boyle

No, we use it at play time and at lunch time, and then we use it for games during the day. It is not in full use, but it is very helpful to have it available.

Chair

Do you have sole access to it during that time? You are not sharing it.

David Boyle

Between 8 o’clock and 6 o’clock, it is not a shared provision.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

How much money are these assets generating?

John Wentworth

I am not entirely clear, but it is about £400,000 a year.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

What are you actually doing with that money?

John Wentworth

At the moment we have a considerable liability to the previous executive headteacher of Durand Academy. He has a break in his contract that entitles him to a lump sum payment, so most of the money is going towards paying him.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

What was the quantum of that severance payment?

John Wentworth

It was £850,000.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Did anybody take legal advice on that? How was it arrived at?

John Wentworth

Through a statutory inquiry from the Charity Commission, which DET went along with and which was independent. Originally it was considerably higher, and as the numbers grew an arrangement was made between—may I use the name?

Chair

Yes.

John Wentworth

An agreement was reached between Sir Greg Martin and DET, with the Charity Commission authorising that figure. That is a published inquiry, actually.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

I have not had the benefit of seeing the trust deed. Did it contain any provisions on what would happen to the assets in the event of the trust being wound down or extinguished?

John Wentworth

Not to my knowledge. I am not up to speed.

Chair

Who drew up those trust deeds? Was Sir Greg involved in drawing them up?

John Wentworth

I don’t know.

Chair

It seems an extraordinarily expensive set of handcuffs for a charity to have. In your experience, Mr Wentworth, is this usual?

John Wentworth

I have never seen that before.

Simon Helps

The NAO investigation that supported the PAC’s 2015 hearing made a couple of findings that are relevant to the conversation. The first was about the transfer of the school land and buildings initially to the Durand Education Trust. What was signed off as factually accurate by the Department for Education was that it was required that Secretary of State approval be sought, but that it was not sought at the time. The second matter relates to the contracts with the former executive headteacher, which were also underwritten by the Durand Academy Trust, in which the former executive headteacher would obviously have had a senior role at the time. The Durand Academy Trust told us that the key members absented themselves from that discussion, but that none the less the decision was made by the school.

Chair

Some of this is well-worn territory, so I think we will move on, because we want your views about what could have been done better in some of these organisations. Ms Barry, at Whitehaven we have seen a catalogue of concerns, including about money paid to companies controlled by Mr Michael Dwan, with a number of companies owned by him all bidding for the same contract, one of them winning it and sometimes subcontracting to others, and money being given to companies on the bid but not being spent. Does that accord with your experience, now that you have taken over as CEO and accounting officer?

Angela Barry

It does not accord with my experience outside Bright Tribe and in other trusts where I have been substantive, but—

Chair

And particularly in Whitehaven Academy?

Angela Barry

Within Bright Tribe there are a number of investigations, some of which I have instigated and some of which have been instigated by the ESFA. They are ongoing and I do not wish to prejudge or predetermine their outcome, but I am sure that once those investigations are fully completed and the findings handed to the board and/or to the ESFA, steps will be taken if that is deemed necessary.

Chair

But you came as a troubleshooter, basically—that is what the Department wanted to appoint you as.

Angela Barry

I came in as a trustee.

Chair

But you were brought in because you have experience of going into trusts that have problems and trying to resolve them.

Angela Barry

Yes.

Chair

And you are now in front of a parliamentary Committee, as I am sure I do not need to remind you. You are here under privilege. In your professional opinion, were there issues around how those contracts were tendered and let and how much of that money was actually spent on the projects that were bid for?

Angela Barry

Any trust that is well run should adhere to the “Academies Financial Handbook”, particularly with respect to related parties and the recording of related parties’ transactions. The investigations that I and the board have instigated and those instigated by the ESFA are purposefully to find out what happened and how contracts were awarded. Once we have those investigations back, if there is action to be taken and there are people who need to be held to account, they will be held to account. What I don’t want to do today is to predetermine or prejudge any of the outcomes.

Chair

But you are having to run the show and you have access to the financial information, so if you have concerns you could possibly deal with some of that yourself, without its being referred for investigation.

Angela Barry

I see myself very firmly as running that trust and running it for the children and staff in the academies today. Whatever has happened in the past, the investigations will be investigating that. If people need to be held to account and actions need to be taken, I am confident that they will be taken. My focus is on making sure that the children and staff are safe in those academies today and that the rebrokerage process happens in a timely manner and those schools go to other well-run trusts.

Chair

Well, then, can I put this question to you? Where does the buck stop? There have been a lot of concerns about Whitehaven—from two different MPs, of different parties, and from parents. Others have raised concerns; the BBC’s “Panorama” raised a number of concerns. There are real issues and there is real evidence. We have seen some privately, and some is in the public domain. You have come in as CEO and accounting officer. Surely part of your job is to call that out, or are you saying that this is not your responsibility and the buck stops further up the chain? If so and it does not stop with you, where does the buck stop?

Angela Barry

To use your phraseology of calling it out, that is what I believe will happen if the investigations show that there is something to be called out. My focus is on making sure that those children and staff are safe and able to teach and learn. What I will say is that once we have those investigations back, if any actions need to be taken, either by the board of the trust or by the ESFA, I am confident that that is what will happen.

Chair

You are well rehearsed in your answers, but what we are trying to—

Angela Barry

It is not about being well rehearsed; it is about what I believe is happening.

Chair

Okay, but you have been a trustee longer than since September; you have been involved since before September.

Angela Barry

The 24 July was my first meeting, by phone.

Chair

Okay, 24 July. Who was calling things out, in terms of the governance of Bright Tribe, at that point? Was it that you came in and were the first to call out these issues?

Angela Barry

My experience of the 24 July meeting was that the meeting was chaired by the person who was the chair of the board at that time. That meeting was my first meeting. I’m not quite sure whether it was the first meeting for Nikki King and Sarah Brown, but they were also new trustees to Bright Tribe at that meeting. What happened in July was that an investigation had been commissioned into LED lighting and the boilers in Whitehaven and Fowey River Academies. That investigation was then stopped, so one of my first actions as interim trustee/interim executive to support was to speak to the then chair and to advise her that I thought she had made the wrong decision by ceasing the investigations and that I thought that the investigations into those two particular expenditures should be restarted—recommissioned. I persuaded her that that was the correct action to take. She said to me that if that was what I thought needed to happen, I was to make contact with the investigator, which is what I did, and we re-instigated those two investigations.

Chair

What was the rationale for stopping them in the first place?

Angela Barry

I don’t know.

Chair

But you came in and found that they had been stopped. It sounds, from the way you have described it, as though it didn’t take much persuasion to restart them. Was it a more robust conversation than the way you have just relayed it?

Angela Barry

She is not the chair now.

Chair

So it was a robust conversation and your approach to tackling this won out.

Angela Barry

On a scale of robust conversations, it is not the most robust conversation I have had.

Chair

If you are going into some of these trusts, I imagine you may indeed have had some robust discussions. There have been various attempts to get information out of Whitehaven. Very often parents—indeed, the MP herself was marched off the premises when asking for this. What is your approach to dealing with requests for information now?

Angela Barry

I pride myself on running schools with my parent hat on. I have always worked in education and I know about the “Academies Financial Handbook” and the Ofsted handbook, but to me the most important thing about schools is this: would I want my own child to be there? Even though my children have grown up, that is what I believe. When I was a parent, if I wanted to speak to someone or find out the answer to something, I always appreciated the courtesy of that happening. Basically, my understanding is that we have no outstanding freedom of information requests at the moment. When I came in to be a trustee, there was an outstanding complaint that had been going on for far too long. Lee Miller and I sat down and discussed it, and Lee Miller went to Whitehaven to meet the parent, because it appeared to us that the courteous thing to do was for one of us to go to Whitehaven and meet the parent.

Chair

So is your approach that you require that information to be released only under an FOI?

Angela Barry

No, I was trying to give an example. My approach is that I try to be open where I can. I am not being evasive, but the last thing I want to do after I have worked so hard to have investigations started and commissioned is to say anything in a public arena that would jeopardise them or lead to somebody being able to say, “Well, it was all predetermined and it’s not really a fair investigation.”

Chair

But on information about school finances, for instance, it is taxpayers’ money that is funding schools, so if a parent wants information about the school’s finances, it should be available on the website, let alone if a parent asks. If I, a parent or anybody wanted information about any of the academies in your trust, would you provide that information—as you should be doing?

Angela Barry

I would provide that information, and if people want to visit any of our schools, as long as they make an appointment and the visit can be accommodated, I would welcome visits to the schools.

Chair

But a visit to a school does not really show much about the finances. To be clear, what is your trust’s policy on academy accounts, for example? How do you present the financial information? It has not been very clear to a lot of the people involved so far.

Angela Barry

Currently, the 2017-18 annual accounts are being prepared, and once they are ready they will be published and they will be in the public arena.

Chair

But if someone has questions about that, particularly around particular contracts, how they have been let and what has been happening, what would you provide?

Angela Barry

If they write to me and/or Lee Miller, the interim chief accounting officer, we will do our best to answer, and answer promptly.

Chair

In the past, do you think the Bright Tribe academy trust’s approach to providing that information met your standards?

Angela Barry

How they responded is something you would have to ask them about.

Chair

I am asking for your professional opinion. You have come in as a troubleshooter. You have seen what has gone before. I am asking for your opinion on whether you felt they met the standards of transparency that you have just outlined.

Angela Barry

The standard of my transparency is that I stick to what I believe is good practice, treating people with the respect that I would expect to be treated with myself. Going forward—

Chair

Going forward, yes, but what about backward? Do you think the trust that you currently head was as open and transparent as that in the past? Do you think it met the standard of best practice that you have just described?

Angela Barry

I think the fact that I am in as an interim CEO is the answer to that question. If things had been run well, I would not be needed now as an interim CEO.

Chair

Are you embarrassed by their actions?

Angela Barry

Professionally, I am hugely embarrassed. I know that the interim team—when I say the interim team, I mean the board, the interim CO and myself—are professionally embarrassed. For any mistakes that have been made in the past by those not in post now, professionally I would like to apologise on their behalf. I am here now to do the best job I possibly can for all the stakeholders, whether they be little people or big people, in our schools.

Chair

We will come on a little later to the issues of learning more widely from multi-academy trusts. Can I ask you a specific question about work done to look at what has gone on at Whitehaven and Fowey River Academy in particular? A consultant engineer to Bright Tribe just carried out an evaluation of what happened and has produced a report, we understand.

Angela Barry

Yes.

Chair

Would you be willing to release that report?

Angela Barry

I have had a request to release that report, and at this time I would rather not release it. The reason is that that is part of our investigations, and my fear is that to release that report then puts into the public domain information for anyone who wished to use that information, for whatever reason, which might undermine a purpose that maybe these investigations show.

Chair

Can you be more specific? You hesitated there when you said “for whatever reason”. I imagine you are not talking about parents or governors—I would hope not.

Angela Barry

Oh gosh, no.

Chair

Okay. Can you be specific about how you think the release of that information could be used in a way you think is detrimental?

Angela Barry

There are currently several investigations under way. Those two are completed investigations. To me, they form a big picture. That big picture may or may not go further.

Chair

By “further”, do you mean a possible criminal investigation?

Angela Barry

I couldn’t possibly comment on that; that is not my role. My role is to ensure that these schools are operating well, and are safe for the children and staff. The fact that those investigations have been commissioned means that those investigations and their findings will be looked at and used appropriately.

Chair

Have you felt any need to call in the police thus far in your tenure as CEO?

Angela Barry

No, I haven’t.

Chair

Is that something that you might still consider, depending on the outcome of these investigations?

Angela Barry

I think that that level of decision making would sit with the board as a whole and the ESFA, and working between the board working and the ESFA. In my interim CEO role, my focus is children and staff. The decision making would need to be at the high level, in terms of the board as a whole corporate body and with the ESFA.

Layla Moran

I was struck by something you just said. You are driven by the ability for people to be able to teach and learn. As a former teacher, I completely understand that. But if there are several investigations into the money, given the funding pressures that schools everywhere are under, can you say, hand on heart, that none of the schools in Bright Tribe at the moment has been adversely affected by what has happened in the past, or are you saying that from this moment onwards everything is fine?

Angela Barry

From this moment onwards they have me as their interim CEO looking over them. In my interim team I also have a chief operating officer in whom I have absolute faith, not because we are buddies or anything like that, but because he is excellent at his job—he is one of the best COOs I know. He has manged to draw together a procurement policy. That procurement policy is out with the heads. They know that they can spend money up to certain limits. For example, there is the closeness with which I am working with the leadership, including the AMC, the local governing force, at Grindon Hall. We are making sure that the resources needed there, particularly in key stages 1 and 2, are being put into those classrooms, and put in rapidly. Now, I know that what has happened before has not been perfect. As I said, if it had been perfect, there would not be a need for someone like me to come in, but I can say that from the time I have been involved there has been a sea change and we are making a difference. In some places we are making more of a difference than in others, but we are making a difference and it is a positive difference.

Layla Moran

So what are the principles by which the trust gives individual schools their budget? As we know, if a school is having a bit of trouble, it is up to the trust to find the money for that. What are the principles that you apply to ensure that all schools are treated fairly within the Bright Tribe trust?

Angela Barry

We ensure that, of the budget that is allocated to the school, they are getting the lion’s share that they are entitled to, and that they are able to buy into any services that the COO or myself are offering, in terms of either financial support or school improvement. We are out visiting the schools and making sure that we are supporting them. One of the big differences that I think has been a huge change for the heads—they have said this to us—is that they have been given control over their money, their buildings and their facilities. They were cut out of the loop in terms of making any decisions about health and safety or fire risk-assessment. They did not understand any of the facilities work. That is not because they did not have the capacity to, but because the information was not given to them. They now have complete control over that. They know that they have me at the end of an email or the phone, and the same goes for the interim COO. So they have that support and they know that they will be supported to make the right decisions for their school. Sometimes we might say, “Talk me through why you think that is the most appropriate means of spending your money at the moment and not something else.” There is support and challenge.

Layla Moran

So to secondments, which I appreciate may have happened in the past. We are aware of people appearing, for example, on the payroll of the school, who never actually worked there and in fact likely worked for one of the—can we say?

Chair

Worked elsewhere in the system.

Layla Moran

Worked elsewhere in the system, but not in any one of the schools. Are you aware of those kinds of secondments happening in accounting lines and finances?

Angela Barry

No. Can you be a little bit more specific?

Layla Moran

I understand that on the payroll of one of the schools was someone who never actually worked in the school.

Chair

More than one person.

Layla Moran

More than one person who was not actually at work in the school and was in fact working for Mr Dwan’s companies.

Angela Barry

I am not aware of that, but if you would like to make me aware of that, I will make sure that—

Chair

We certainly will provide you with certain information.

Layla Moran

You have a number of different investigations going on, as you alluded to earlier. Do you feel that what is going on here is actually a small symptom of a much bigger picture of what was going on at Bright Tribe at the time? Is that something that you are attempting to draw out?

Angela Barry

Sorry?

Layla Moran

You have lots of investigations into individual things that have gone wrong in various Bright Tribe schools. You alluded to one reason that you did not want to release the reports as being that, to summarise what I heard, you do not want others to see it in case they start hiding stuff, because there will potentially be the same things in other schools. Do you feel that a set of principles was at work there that was actively trying to take money away from where it was meant to be—on the frontline with the kids and the teachers—and channelling it elsewhere? Is that what you feel was systematically happening at Bright Tribe?

Angela Barry

I would not want to make such a sweeping statement because I do not want to be seen to prejudge or predetermine something that I do not know the answer to.

Layla Moran

But if there were such a systematic approach, are you hoping that it would be drawn out in the individual reports? Or are you planning to do an overarching report that draws it all together at the end?

Angela Barry

I think I would prefer to wait until I have all the reports back, the board has received them and the board decides what action they want to take. The board takes the appropriate advice to make sure that, if action needs to be taken, it is taken in such a way that does not jeopardise anything that may need to happen. I am certainly not going to predetermine or prejudge the outcome.

Layla Moran

Absolutely. Are you confident that the board would take that kind of action, and that it would be determined to root out anything like that?

Angela Barry

The interim board has my 100% backing and confidence, and I do not give my backing and confidence easily.

Chair

Can I ask how many of the trustees were former trustees? Or did you have a clean sweep of new people?

Angela Barry

There is a totally new board in place.

Chair

When you took over Bright Tribe as CEO and came in to rebroker the schools, what due diligence did you do about what you were taking on?

Angela Barry

I did a little bit of due diligence before I even accepted becoming a trustee. When I became a trustee, I knew that there were possible difficulties. I wasn’t sure, at that stage, how those difficulties had arisen. Even though 24 July was quite close to the end of July, by the time I got to the first week in August I had formed my own hypotheses. However, as with any good hypotheses, you test things out and see where they take you and whether things are as you think they might be. I emphasise that we are an interim team; I am not a superwoman, I am only human, and I work as part of a very good team. We are independent individuals. We are not best buds. We are working very hard. My focus is to make sure that children and staff get what they need.

Chair

Did you ask for any guarantees from, or make any particular requests of, the ESFA or the Department before you agreed to take over as interim CEO?

Angela Barry

No, I didn’t. Do you mean in terms of personal liability?

Chair

Personal liability, access to information or anything, given your degree of due diligence before you became a trustee, as you said. Knowing what you then learned as a trustee, did you ask for any particular support or access to information?

Angela Barry

We are well supported by the ESFA. There is a weekly KIT—keeping in touch—phone call that takes place absolutely every week. The time or day might change, but it takes place once a week. That is very supportive. I do not feel as though I am out on a limb, and I know that my chairs do not feel as though they are out on a limb. They are also included in that KIT call.

Chair

Did they approach you to take over as interim CEO or how did it work?

Angela Barry

The DFE asked me whether I would be a trustee and then, literally within days, I was interim school support, in terms of the COO having resigned and the CEO at that time being unwell. I was there to add capacity. Then by September, the then chair and the other new trustees asked whether I would be an interim CEO.

Chair

In terms of the transferring out of schools—we went through the list before—how confident are you that schools are transferring out with the correct assets? Obviously, they came together to form one multi-academy trust, with one big budget. How are you disaggregating that as the trusts leave to go to other trusts?

Angela Barry

That is not my role. My role is the day-to-day overseeing of those schools.

Chair

So, whose role would that be in the system? We are trying to work out who is responsible for what.

Angela Barry

That will be the ESFA.

Chair

Okay. We are seeing them on Wednesday.

Gareth Snell

Although I appreciate that it is not your role, have there been times when you have had to challenge the ESFA in terms of what it is allocating to each school as it is transferring them out, from what you understand from the day-to-day operations of these schools?

Angela Barry

The conversations that I have with colleagues in the ESFA are, I think, full and frank. The reason we can have full and frank conversations is that they are between us and things are explained to me because, obviously, I don’t understand some things. If you ask me about schools and teaching and learning, I can give you chapter and verse. If you ask me about the machinations of what goes on in terms of the ESFA and how things are organised, that is not my specialism. Sometimes I do ask questions and I am told the answers and might have a discussion, but that is not my focus. That is not my role.

Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown

Ms Barry, knowing what you now know about these trusts, are you making any representations to the DFE on how governance arrangements for them, and for trusts in general, could be improved?

Angela Barry

The “Academies Financial Handbook”, alongside the Ofsted handbook, the governance handbook and the competencies for governance—if when you are running a trust you have those four publications you will be set up to do well, and your schools and your trust will do well. What I love about the “Academies Financial Handbook”—maybe this is a bit sad and I need to get a life—is the fact that it is updated annually. I like the fact that every year, as an accounting officer, we get a letter saying, “This is what the new things are.” In the current “Academies Financial Handbook” there are certain changes about related party transactions, the reporting on wages of any staff above £150,000, and things like that. The way that has improved, year on year, shows that the system is evolving. Whatever system you have, it is only as good as the people leading it—leadership in a trust, leadership in a school that is an academy, leadership in a school that is not an academy. It is the leadership that really makes the difference. What I would say on improvements is that I think the “Academies Financial Handbook” has improved each year. It is vital that the annual letter from the chief accounting officer is read and understood. You are always going to have people in every walk of life who somehow do not fully understand their roles. It happens in every walk of life; it is not limited to academies or MATs.

Chair

We are going to come back to your views as a panel on what could be done better, but I am going to bring Ms Moran in first.

Layla Moran

What I am chasing goes back to the question the Chair asked earlier: where does the buck stop? It is not just who is responsible, but who takes responsibility when things go wrong. In particular, I would like to ask Mr Wentworth and Mr Boyle—and maybe give Ms Barry a break just for a second—about the role of the regional schools commissioners in the rebrokering process. How did that work? How was that interaction? Was it useful? Let’s just start there.

John Wentworth

The role of the regional schools commissioners in the rebrokering?

Layla Moran

Indeed.

John Wentworth

I think there was a particular history in the Durand case, and there was a set view that it needed a particular type of trust to come in. Originally, it was identified that the Harris academy trust would be the preferred—

Layla Moran

It was identified by whom?

John Wentworth

I assume by the regional schools commissioner. I am not fully aware of the process. Is there a headteacher board that makes those decisions?

David Boyle

Yes.

John Wentworth

Harris were identified. I did not necessarily agree with that, but it was not for me to agree or not.

Layla Moran

Why did you not agree with that?

John Wentworth

I thought there was a far better local alternative—the Dunraven Trust—which I thought was in a better position to deal with those children and to get the support of the community. They were running a very successful and highly regarded school locally, and given all the issues of confidence that the parents of Durand had been through, having a known quantity locally that was successful and that they aspired to was the best option. It turned out to be that way, but it was only after we went halfway through the process with Harris and they withdrew, as you know, that we were able to re-approach Dunraven.

Layla Moran

Why do you think Harris was chosen initially over Dunraven?

John Wentworth

I assume because of their size and reputation.

Layla Moran

Mr Boyle, do you want to take us through your happy memories of the rebrokering process?

David Boyle

Very happy. They were very quick, really, because time was very short. The Durand Academy Trust had the notice to close in the middle of June, so Harris’s decision not to take the project forward provided some challenges for the RSC and the DFE. We had already expressed an interest in working with Durand previously, before we got to the point where there was a notice to close and Harris had been identified as a potential sponsor, so it was not as if our selection was out of the blue. However, we had not expected to be asked to work with the school once we knew that Harris were involved. We were asked prior to the May half-term if we were interested, and we had to do a fairly intense and speedy bit of due diligence in order to decide whether we felt we had the capacity. We had done some work previously, so it was not from a standing start, and together with assurances from the DFE and the ESFA that we would be supported in taking the project forward, we felt that we could go ahead.

Layla Moran

Given how it ended up, do you feel that the regional schools commissioner had a handle on what was actually the best thing for the school in the end, at the time that the Harris selection was made? Benefit of hindsight—fine—but were they close enough to the ground to be able to make the right decision?

David Boyle

The particular issue with Durand, as John alluded to, was that there had been an ongoing issue prior to the creation of the regional schools commissioners. The story around Durand pre-existed that decision-making process. The RSC and his team had been in contact with the school over time, and consequently had a reasonable view of the issues surrounding the school and the kinds of processes that would be necessary to help it to move forward. Harris’s capacity clearly suggested that they would be able to do that.

Layla Moran

By the time they got to you and said, “Please take on the school,” what was the tone? Did you really feel that you had a choice? What sweeteners did they offer you? Did they help to make that decision worthwhile?

David Boyle

They were clear that, because we had expressed an interest previously, we were being asked to consider it, but that if we said no, and I understood that it needed a rapid decision, they would move on—

Layla Moran

How long did you have to make that quite big financial decision?

David Boyle

It was about 48 hours.

Layla Moran

What kind of due diligence were you able to do in that 48 hours, bearing in mind that you had already done a bit?

David Boyle

We had done some previously, and the Harris Federation provided for us all the information that they had gathered. Consequently, it was a more informed process than would otherwise clearly have been feasible.

Layla Moran

But did you go over it?

David Boyle

Yes, we did. We met with the person who led their procurement process taking academies into the Federation. His experience was evident from the meeting, and consequently there was a recognition from all parties that the school, the children and the community deserved something better than perhaps it had been receiving thus far. Consequently, all aims came together.

Layla Moran

Did you take it on exactly the same basis on which Harris had rejected it?

David Boyle

Yes; that is what we understood. The information available and the support available was, we were told, the same for us as it had been for Harris. Nothing changed. So there were, to use your phrase, no sweeteners on top of it at that point. It was not as if anybody had said, “Because Harris hasn’t taken it we’ll give you extra.” It was the same offer.

Layla Moran

It was the same basis—

Chair

What were the sweeteners that were offered originally to Harris? Were there things to smooth the path, if you don’t want to use the word “sweeteners”?

David Boyle

I am sure that Harris would say similarly that they have never had any sweeteners from anybody.

Chair

“Sweeteners” has other implications. What did the Department or the ESFA offer as inducement—well, as extra support? Was it financial, was it—?

David Boyle

A sum of money was made available that was taken from the existing school reserves—not the full amount of the reserves but sufficient to do capital work that needed doing—

Chair

How much was that?

David Boyle

It was a very significant difficulty with boilers and asbestos, and a complete refresh of the windows. It was £918,000.

Chair

That was from the Durand Academy Trust’s existing reserves.

David Boyle

Yes.

Chair

And they hadn’t spent it on those things? They obviously hadn’t spent it on those things in order to pass it over. They had that money.

David Boyle

I cannot answer for that at that point.

Chair

Mr Wentworth, just before we let that point go, have you any understanding about why those works—windows, asbestos and other major capital works—were not carried out, in spite of reserves of that scale being available?

John Wentworth

Durand Academy Trust still retains its reserves.

Chair

It’s a lot more than that.

John Wentworth

It’s around about £1 million. We are in the process of wrapping up the trust, going through the legal process.

Layla Moran

Where will that money go when that is done?

John Wentworth

It is not clear whether it goes back to the ESFA or to Dunraven Educational Trust, but whatever is resolved that is where it will go.

Chair

It will go back to taxpayers.

John Wentworth

It will go back to taxpayers, yes, absolutely.

Chair

You were involved as a consultant in 2014-15 and again in 2017-18 with headteachers. There was that level of reserves and that level of capital need at the school. Can you explain to us why it wasn’t being spent?

John Wentworth

I can. The reserves went down very significantly between 2014 and 2017, through the boarding school project. When I arrived in 2017, the reserves were down to about £240,000, which was very low for a school of that size. The boarding project had swallowed up a huge amount of the income; in fact, they were running an in-year deficit, drawing down on the reserves every year. With the closure of the boarding project in July 2017, we were able to set a new budget for the whole of those reserves to restabilise the school’s finances. That was the first thing I set about doing. My whole intention was that at the end of 2017-18 the school would be handed on to a new trust, safely and in good financial shape. Most of that surplus—about £800,000 to £900,000—was generated from the 2017-18 school year. It was an in-year surplus, with the reduction in staffing, decisions we made regarding the boarding school and in-year decisions. The boarding school was sucking money out of the school enormously.

Chair

So sucking out of a school money that would otherwise have been spent on crucial maintenance.

John Wentworth

The asbestos issue didn’t really come up until halfway through the 2017-18 school year, so that was recent, but certainly the windows—wholescale investment really had been held back to support the boarding project.

Chair

I want to go back to you, Ms Barry. You talked about a number of inquiries that are under way. You said that two have completed. Can you run through when you will have that full suite of inquiries delivered on your desk, ready to pass on?

Angela Barry

This side of Christmas.

Chair

So how many in total have you got under way? You talk about two that are complete. How many others are under way?

Angela Barry

Wherever there was a capital grant or a Salix loan, we have commissioned an investigation by a different company. The company that we used for Fowey River and for Whitehaven was for LED lighting and boilers, whereas the other Salix loans and grants were not for such work. That investigator was a specialist in those premises, and our other investigations are being undertaken by a company specialised in those particular areas. This side of Christmas, I should have a full suite of investigations to put before the board.

Chair

Who chose the companies doing the investigation?

Angela Barry

The investigators for the batch that I am waiting for at the moment were suggested by another academy trust, which had used the company for premises work related to undertaking that work—not an investigation. The company that is doing the investigation is literally doing an audit of what was commissioned and what has been completed.

Chair

You have had a free hand to select all the companies doing the investigation.

Angela Barry

Yes.

Chair

Have you done due diligence to check that they have got no contact with the companies that were originally bidding for the work?

Angela Barry

Companies House is on redial on my mobile. I am not a suspicious person—perhaps I am—but the due diligence I undertake is to make sure I check who the directors are on Companies House. I look at the filing information, the filing history, the people and any link companies. I do it like that.

Chair

You are doing that on your own.

Angela Barry

I don’t do it on my own.

Chair

Who else is helping you with that due diligence?

Angela Barry

My interim chief operating officer.

Chair

So it is all within Bright Tribe. What about the ESFA and the regional schools commissioner? Have they got any oversight over it?

Angela Barry

The ESFA are there if I need them, but I prefer to do it myself because it will be me who takes it forward or commissions an investigation through the board if I need to.

Chair

You have got Companies House on speed dial. Do you have the ESFA or anyone in the Department on speed dial so you can say, “We are thinking of bringing in this company to do this investigation. Do they pass a clean bill of health with you?”

Angela Barry

I would have access to that. Yes, I do have contact emails and phone numbers. If I needed to contact anyone in the ESFA or the DFE, I feel I could.

Chair

When will the information from these inquiries be available to the public—if not to the whole public, to stakeholders, parents, teachers and others at the school?

Angela Barry

I would say that it would be up to the board to decide any actions that they or the ESFA wish to take, and where they wish to take those investigation findings.

Chair

Do you think it is important that the people whose children are at the school and teachers who teaching in the school—I am thinking particularly of Whitehaven and the asbestos problems—are aware of the problems in the school as soon as possible?

Angela Barry

I do believe in the freedom of information, and I do believe that people should have access to information. I need to balance that against the fact that if I put things out there in the public domain, I am not just letting the right people know about that information. I could be letting others know that information. The board and the ESFA may want to take that information and use it in some sort of further action.

Chair

You said earlier that you haven’t referred anything to the police. Have you had any contact from the police or the Serious Fraud Office about any of the activities you have been investigating?

Angela Barry

No.

Chair

May I just ask Mr Wentworth and Mr Boyle about public information? You have heard Ms Barry highlight what she thinks is good practice, which is to put information out there. Mr Wentworth, do you think that is the right approach?

John Wentworth

Yes, I am sure it is.

Chair

So when Durand Academy Trust closes, how will the information from the academy trust be stored? Who will it belong to at that point? What will happen to it?

John Wentworth

There will certainly be a record on Companies House.

Chair

Companies House records don’t tell you a great deal, really. I am thinking of minutes of meetings, invoices for contracts let and so on. Does that information still exist now?

John Wentworth

It certainly does. The minutes are there in paper form. There is no designated website for Durand Academy Trust at the moment.

Chair

Who is responsible for that paperwork? Is it you now?

John Wentworth

Yes. There are still directors of the trust. It is the directors of the trust under advice.

Chair

Presumably that information has to be kept for a certain period of time.

John Wentworth

It will be kept, yes. It has to be kept.

Gareth Snell

You said that there is no active website. If I were a member of the public who was watching this and was particularly interested to do some further investigation, how easy would it be for me to access that previous information? How easy would it be to find the relevant individual—other than yourself—in order to track the information down?

John Wentworth

It would have to be through Companies House—the end-of-year accounts are the only information that is publicly available.